Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased." Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luk 3:21-38 ESV)
There’s much to say in this passage, but we’ll focus in on the witness we have of the Trinity. Many folks lament the exclusion of 1 Jn 5:7 in some Bible versions, which reads…
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1Jn 5:7 KJV)
They lament it because it is such a clear teaching of the Trinity. But as we see in our passage from Luke, the Trinitarian teaching is just as clear here. The real question needs to be….do we base our Scripture on our doctrines, or do we base our doctrines on the Scripture? The proper, God-honoring view is to base our doctrines on Scripture.
In the Luke passage we see some interesting Trinitarian things…the Son of God is being baptized, the Holy Spirit descends on Him, the Father speaks from Heaven. This shows each of the three persons acting at the same time…and this acting is part of what makes each of them persons…though they are one God.
One of the heresies that has become popular in modern times is modalism. This teaches that God manifests Himself in three different modes, but they are really just one person not three. Modalism can’t stand against the testimony of Scripture as we see here in Luke and in other passages. Since all three persons were acting at the same time they are clearly three distinct persons in the one Godhead rather than one person manifesting himself in three different modes.
We should also clarify what “person” means when we refer to the persons in the Godhead. Our experience is that “person” refers to independent individuals who are not bound together in any particular way. This is not the type of “person” we refer to when we speak in reference to God. Rather, “person” in the context of God refers to thinking, willing, acting, speaking…but not to independence as we so often think.
As an example, we see in this passage that each of the three persons is “acting” in a different way…Son=baptized, Holy Spirit=descending, Father=speaking.
Each of the persons in the Trinity can speak to each other…otherwise the prayers of Christ become quite meaningless. They can feel (though this is somewhat anthropopathic) as we read that the Holy Spirit can be grieved, the Father can burn with anger, and Christ wept at the grave of Lazarus.
We will never fully understand the nature of God, not even in glory. As a matter of fact, one of the joys of being in glory with God will be that we will learn more and more about Him without ever coming to a place where we stop learning. We will plunge into the infinite depths of God without ever reaching the end!
We must be satisfied with what Scripture tells us and be careful to not go beyond it with reference to the nature of God. It is enough to believe that there is one God in three persons…we dare not presume to every understand Him fully, but only as He reveals Himself in Scripture to us.
In answering the question, “What was God doing before he created all things,” Calvin said, “Making a Hell for the curious.”
So how does the teaching of the Trinity impact our lives? Does it impact your life?
The more that God reveals about Himself to us should bring us great joy because our knowledge of Him is directly related to our love for Him.
Have you ever loved someone that you didn’t know anything about? We love God because He first loved us…and He has condescended to give us Scripture that we might get to know Him more, thereby growing in our love for Him.
Some folks that we get to know more we end up loving less because we see their many faults. Not so with God. As we get to know Him more we become more aware of His perfections, therefore we only grow in our love for Him.
Greetings Larry
ReplyDeleteModalism is indeed wrong & erroneous.
Therefore,
On the subject of the Trinity,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus
Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you to reconsider "The Trinity"
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
Adam,
ReplyDeleteWhen I started to watch the video images of Jesus were shown, therefore i will not continue to watch it. Idolatry is a serious sin and as such i will not condone any depiction of Christ in images as the video has them.
Perhaps you could comment as to the beliefs the video represents. It's much easier to interact with personal comments than with a two hour video.
I would first ask, "What is your standard of truth?"
In response to that question, my answer is - "The Bible."
Hmmm!
ReplyDeleteIf Jesus is not GOD,
it cannot be idolatry, can it?
That's the point.
GOD is not a man!
[Num 23.19, 1 Sam 15.29, Job 9.32, Hosea 11.9, etc]
Jesus, His Son, is a man.
[1 Tim 2.5, John 8.40, etc]
So some "speculative" images of a man, cannot be idolatry, seeing that GOD is not a man & Jesus is a man!
Ironically, there was a time I would have agreed with your assumption; but by the ONE GOD's grace, I know better now.
Nonetheless, the video presents the biblical human Jesus; and shows some of the fallacies (using scripture/Bible) of the so-called doctrine of the trinity.
I would gladly discuss this issue with you, with the proviso that you watch the video first!
If you do not wish to watch the video,
I bid you Adieu!
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
I have watched the video...
ReplyDelete“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it…14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” – John 1:1-5, 14 (ESV)
Jesus is distinguished as the Logos of God, that he was with God and that he is God. Verse 3 clenches it because it is a logical fallacy to say that All things were made through him but yet he is still a created being… Either all things are created through Christ, or Scripture is in Error here. The Word is not God the Father, why? Two reasons, first, the Word was WITH GOD, and second, and the WORD became FLESH. So a pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, known as the Word created the universe and man and everything. Do not talk about Greek Translational Errors, I am friends with 5 Greek scholars, one of them an atheist, and all concur that it states that “and the Logos (Word) was God” and that it is not appropriate to put an ‘a’ there…
“13 And he said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” – Isaiah 7:13-14 (ESV)
Immanuel = God With Us
A Jew telling us that God is going to be incarnate.
“8‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’” - Revelation 1:8 (ESV)
“12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” - Revelation 22:12-13 (ESV)
If Jesus is not God then he is Lying here and then he is not the Messiah, but rather the Devil.
“57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” – John 8:57-59
Again here he is claiming divinity… For he is applying the name, “I AM”, to himself. Hence the reason for the Pharisees picking up stones to stone him for blaspheme.
I could go on and on…
What about in the Garden of Eden? God walks with Adam and Eve in the Garden but yet Jesus tells us that NO MAN HAS SEEN THE FATHER, so who was Adam having Fellowship with in the Garden? It was Jesus Christ, the pre-incarnate Son of God, who was God himself.
Please address these passages of scripture which completely challenge the heretical views that were put forth in the video you posted. It is not by Creed or Tradition that I call Christ God, but by his very own Words. Furthermore, relying on Apostate Jews who rejected and killed the Messiah, as proof as to what Faithful Christians are to believe is nonsensical. I am a German Jew by blood, so claims of Anti-Semitism does not apply. I love all people, for all are sinners just as I am and are in need of the atoning blood of Christ.
Adam,
ReplyDeleteI see now where you are erring. Yes, Jesus is man...but He is also God. These are the two natures found within the one person of Jesus. This is not an assumption, but a biblical teaching. All who believe Jesus is ONLY a man and not God refuse to take parts of Scripture seriously, and rather focus on the manhood of Christ...which I agree with, I just also agree with His deity as expressed in Scripture...
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Rom 9:5)
But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. (Heb 1:8)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (Tit 2:13)
May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. (2Pe 1:2)
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (Act 20:28)
...Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, (Col 2:8-9)
If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (Joh 14:7-9)
Greetings Joshua
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the time to watch the video. However, I suggest that you watch it again, because many of the points you raised are already answered & addressed adequately by the different contributors in the video; and there's little point in me repeating what has already been addressed.
For example, John 1.1-5, 14!
Jesus is not mentioned at all in the first 5 verses of John. And he doesn't come into view until verse 14, where GOD's word becomes flesh!
Colin Brown (who is featured in the video) says it succinctly:
"It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John's Gospel to read it as if it said: 'In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God' (John 1:1).
What has happened here is the substitution of Son for Word (Greek logos), and thereby the Son is made a member of the Godhead which existed from the beginning."
John 1.1-5 is about GOD's word. A word is an it, not a him.
That's is why the majority of all English translations of the Bible, before the KJV;
translated John 1.1-3 as follows:
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
Note: it not him! Because John 1.1ff is about GOD's word; i.e. GOD spoke and it was done (Gen 1.3,6,9, etc; compare Psalm 33.6,9)
It is not until verse 14, that GOD's word becomes flesh, resulting in the man Christ Jesus, GOD's Son.
As Kuschel puts it:
'The logos of the prologue becomes Jesus;
Jesus was the logos become flesh,
not the logos as such.'
(Born Before All Time?, p. 382)
So neither John nor Scripture are in error here. John 1.1ff is about GOD's word, hence the reason, why in the opening verses, neither "Jesus or Son" is even mentioned!
All things were made through it i.e. all things were made through GOD's word!
As for putting an ‘a’ there.... I haven't got a clue what you mean by that!
Again, Isaiah 7:14 is adequately addressed in the video. Please watch it again.
Revelation 1:8 are the words of the ONE GOD, the Father i.e.
8‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God
John's salutation about Jesus is in verses 5-7 whilst verse 8 addresses GOD.
(Some Bibles have indeed rectified this and no longer print verse 8 in red!)
Nevertheless, Jesus is indeed, the first and the last (verse 17), Amen!
However, just because 'a man' is conferred with a title that also belongs to God Almighty; this doesn't make the man 'God Almighty':
e.g. the title king of kings which is used in ref. to GOD & man.
Therefore, in like manner, GOD can confer titles to His agent, Jesus His Son.
This does not however, make Jesus GOD; rather it makes him, GOD's ultimate agent, representative & plenipotentiary. The Jews call this scriptural concept the law of agency.
So Jesus is indeed, the the first and the last:
because for example, he is the firstborn from the dead, and he will be the one to call the last people out of their graves; he is both the Author and Finisher of faith; he is the Man by whom God will judge the world and he is the one who will then bring to completion the next ages; all under the authority given him by GOD Almighty, his Father.
As for John 8.58ff, this again is addressed in the video.
ReplyDeleteIn short, there is absolutely NO connection between John 8.58 and Exo 3.14 at all!
Jesus said, "I am [he]". 'Ego eimi'
Which simply means "It's me! Me who? The Messiah."
Compare: John 4.26, 8.24,28. There are all Messianic claims using 'ego eimi'
Before Abraham, GOD had FOREORDAINED that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah.
(cp. 1 Pet 1.20)
In that sense of course, Jesus is indeed BEFORE Abraham.
And of course, being the Messiah, Jesus is greater than Abraham.
That was the context of the question:
(John 8:53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham,
which is dead? and the prophets are dead: WHOM MAKEST THOU THYSELF?
Again, there is absolutely NO connection between John 8.58 and Exo 3.14 at all.
In the Septuagint (LXX), Exo 3.14 is rendered:
(Exo 3:14) And God said unto Moses, EGO EIMI HO ON:
and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
HO ON hath sent me unto you.
If John therefore, was indeed recording the fact that Jesus was claiming to be GOD Almighty based on Exo 3.14, John would have penned:
Before Abraham was, EGO EIMI HO ON
or
Before Abraham was, HO ON.
Of course, John penned no such thing.
Jesus was making a Messianic claim.
That is who he "making out himself to be" ... the Messiah.
For more info on the fallacy of the Exo 3.14 connection please read:
Is Jesus the "I AM?"
What about in the Garden of Eden? Indeed, what about it?
(Gen 3:8-10) And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. ... 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid,...
Says nothing about Adam & Eve seeing GOD? Look at it again!
BTW, Scripture does not say no man has seen the Father.
Scripture says: No Man Has Seen GOD At Any Time!!
[John 1.18, 1 John 4.12,20; cp. 1 Tim 6.16]
Many saw Jesus! Therefore Jesus is NOT GOD,
but rather he is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD!
[Col 1.15]
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
Adam Pastor,
ReplyDeleteI have read your comments and viewed your video.
You are taking the passage refering to Jesus claiming to be the "I AM" in Isolation. If you read the entire passage chunk you will see that the Pharisees picked up stones to stone him for blaspheme, for claiming to be God.
Most of the claims of the video you have posted a link to have been repeatedly and successfully refuted throughout the history of the Church.
Your examination of John 1 is completely errant as the translation of Logos to "word" is not entire sufficient. It says, "The logos WAS GOD" then it later says, "The logos became FLESH". This is very clear. About gender, God the Father has no gender, he is neither male or female, God is an it, who ascribes masculine characteristics to himself. It is not until the Logos became flesh that God the Son became male in a physical sense.
Sincerely,
Calvin
I think that Adam proves our point. Anyone looking at our defense of the deity of Christ and Adam's arguments against it...and looks at the Scriptures referenced for themselves...they will see how Adam is twisting the Scripture to fit his preconceived ideas of what God is. The Trinitarian interpretation of these passages is clearly the more exegetically correct one, and most reading this blog will be able to distinguish the truth of Trinitariansism from the lies that Adam is propagating.
ReplyDelete"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God [theos] was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." (1 Timothy 3:16)
ReplyDeleteSeems pretty clear to me...
Hello fellow posters:
ReplyDeleteI think everyone is right and wrong. Jesus is the Son of the living God, the only true God is the Father. The Father is the Most High. (John 14:28) Psalms 83:18 tells us that the Most High is YHWH, Yahweh/Jehovah.
However, the Son did have a pre-human existence as was with the Father, was alongside his Father. (John 17:5) He certainly did see his Father which no other man could claim. (John 6:46)
One thing that is often overlooked is that Jesus had a God. There is always someone who is God to him. (Ephesians 1:17; Revelation 3:12) Not just when he was a man but even after his glorious resurrection to heaven where he sits at His God and Father's right hand.
Jesus is given a high position but not the Most High. He is superior over all but with the exception of his Father who is Supreme. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) He is mighty but not Almighty.
Respectfully,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com